Episode #002: Italy itinerary planning tips

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Choosing where to go and what to see is one of the most challenging parts about planning travel to Italy. That’s because there are just so many amazing places to see and things to do. Even with well over 50 trips between us we still have trouble deciding where to go. Should we return to our old favorites or try a new region or city? We get it, it’s hard!

Show notes

In this episode we talk about general principles of itinerary planning for Italy and discuss the minimum amount of time we recommend that you stay in each place. We’ll tell you how we approach trip planning and reveal our favorite sources of inspiration.

Thinking about your interests and what you and your travel partners like doing is key. One person’s cannoli is another’s gelato, if you see what we mean!

We advise getting out a map and really thinking through your itinerary in terms of what makes sense factoring in travel time and getting to and from your hotel.

And instead of making lots of stop you may want to consider making a base in a bigger city like Rome or Florence and adding day trips from there.

Most importantly, while it’s tempting to try to do everything, the best approach is to build in lots of time for relaxing and enjoying the unique atmosphere you’ll only find in Italy.

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What you’ll learn in this episode

  1. Our favorite resources for finding trip inspiration
  2. Why planning your itinerary around your interests (rather than a list of ‘must sees’ is key
  3. When choosing a package tour might make sense over planning your own trip
  4. The typical first timers itinerary
  5. How to approach your second, third and beyond visit

Places mentioned in this episode

  • Cities – Rome, Florence, Venice, Milan, Bologna, Verona, Modena, Ravenna
  • Cinque Terre
  • Lake Como
  • Sorrento and Amalfi Coast – Positano, Amalfi, Ravello, Capri
  • Sicily – Catania, Taormina, Cefalu, Palermo
  • Southern regions – Puglia and Calabria
  • Roscioli – a favorite restaurant in Rome

Resources

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Transcript

Prefer to read along as you listen? Below is a full transcript of our episode conversation. Unfortunately it does not pick up our lovely Australian accents however!

Click here for full episode transcript

Josie: 00:04 Ciao and benvenuti to Untold Italy. I’m Josie.

Katy: 00:07 and I’m Katy and we’re here to help you plan your trip to Italy.

Josie: 00:11 Between us, we have many years of travel experience and we want to help you uncover your own as yet untold stories and adventures in Italy.

Katy: 00:19 Each episode you’ll hear practical advice, tips and ideas to help you plan your own trips to the magical land of history, stunning landscapes, and a whole lot of pasta.

Josie: 00:28 We’ll have interviews from experts and focus on local destinations and frequently asked questions about travel in Italy.

Katy: 00:35 Thanks for listening and make sure to subscribe to our show.

Josie: 00:38 Now let’s get started on your regular dose of Bella Italia[

Josie: 00:51 Ciao and ben venuti to Untold Italy. I’m Josie.

Katy: 00:54 and I’m Katy and we’re here to help you plan your trip to Italy. In episode two we’re going to talk to you about planning your itinerary. Even after over 50 trips to Italy between us, this can still be a challenge. That’s because there are so many amazing places to see and incredible things to do.

Josie: 01:10 It’s so hard to choose. I even have difficulty when I have to plan my trip. In this episode we’re going to go through a rough guide on how to plan your trip, where to stay in each place, how long to stay in each place. We’re even going to talk about the transit time that you can build into your itinerary or should build into your itinerary. Some tips to make the most of your time. And a really a rough itinerary for the first timers.

Katy: 01:38 So let’s get started. Josie, how do you plan your itineraries for your trips to Italy?

Josie: 01:45 So the way I plan my trip is lots and lots of investigation. Looking online, making sure I want to see where I’m going to go. So we planned maybe two or three cities we want to be in, we want to go. And then from there I look at different things. How to get there. Do I do, as you said in the first episode, train, flight or automobile. How do I, how am I going to get there? How long do I want to stay there? And then I look at the hotels cause you know how much I love our hotels.

Katy: 02:15 So, so let’s back it up a bit. How about like in terms of inspiration about where you want to go, where do you look for inspiration for your, the destinations that you want to go to?

Josie: 02:24 Well, the last big inspiration was Puglia. We wanted to go to Puglia because on most of our social media and on the TV, some of the cooking shows everyone was going to Puglia. It was about the food, the people we’d heard. It was just amazing. It was getting a lot of promotion globally and we really thought that that would be a place we wanted to go to.

Katy: 02:46 Yeah, that’s great. I, I use a lot of social media too, so some of my go to spots are Instagram and also Pinterest. I don’t know if you’ve ever used Pinterest for travel, but I also use guidebooks and I think that, you know, the traditional guidebook is always a really good place to start because they’ve got, they’ve really thought about, you know, ways of getting around and the distances between each place. And usually you’ll get a rough itinerary that you can follow there. Do you have any preferred guidebooks that you use or you’re not really a guidebooks person?

Josie: 03:17 No, we have the Lonely Planet. I really like that it’s got, we’ve got one Italy one and we all look at it and decide. I spend a bit of time going through cause they give you planned itineraries. They even give you hotels as well. So I Google some of them. Best friend is really getting into the city and having a look at different parts when you, when you do the internet searches. So putting in Rome and then from, so I’ve got a few things. So you’re right, the, the, the tour guide, the Instagram and start looking around and also talking to people, people that have gone, they’ve got so many great places. The man at my coffee shop who I absolutely adore, Andrew. He just came back from Rome and he stayed at a hotel and then we were talking about where he went. And so we get different ideas or I didn’t go to that restaurant. And so we start talking about different things. So even people around you that have been, and that’s why I think your blog is really great because you start actually conversing with different people and then when they’re there, they’re actually showing you pictures and where they’re eating and what they’re doing. So I think that’s fantastic.

Katy: 04:20 Yeah, I think, you know, I, as a blogger, I’d be remiss in not including blogs in my research, which I absolutely do because sometimes bloggers can get to like, you know, explain some of the more nitty gritty and special places that you may not get in and over in an overview of the guidebook because guidebooks, while they’re, they’re written in a moment in time. So they’re kind of static. Not to say that things in Italy changed that much. And I have to say that you know, really a lot of times, you know, there’s the classic tried and true restaurants and places to go. Like, hey the Coliseum’s just been there for 2000 years or so. But, you know, even restaurants, like one of our favorites in Rome. I know Josie and I share this one is Roscioli and and you know, it’s been there for decades and so, you know, so some things don’t change, but if you, but then some things become more popular through social media. So, I think though that it is almost overwhelming when you get that big overview picture. So I think that you have to overlay that with another layer and that is how much time you have. And I guess everyone has like a different amount of time. I know when we’re coming from Australia, it’s, it’s a two to three week minimum trip because it takes 24 hours. I think and from the U S it’s probably, I would say at least a minimum of a week or, and two weeks. But when we were living in the UK, we could pop over for the weekend and that was a lot of fun. I can tell you. So depending on where you are in the world is going to depend on, you know, how much time you have to explore and what you’re, what you’re able to do that time. What other things do you think? Factors into the itinerary planning.

Josie: 06:03 I think also what you really want to see. So if you’re really into, you know, religion and want to see churches, well you need to start with Rome. I mean to go into St Peters cathedral is a number one tourist attraction. And then I think also then for me, I love art. So Florence has always been something that is really important, you’ve got David and you’ve got the art and you’ve got the Uffizi Gallery so you’ve got a lot of different places and then you know, then if you wanted to go, but then if you enter into wine and want to do the winery tours, then Tuscany would be somewhere. So I think you need to tap into what is of interest to you and your partner or your friends or whoever you’re going with. And I think that that is number one. We traveled the first time with my girls and we all gave everyone an option as to where they wanted to go when we were away for six weeks. So we knew what we wanted to do, but we all sat together and decided who wanted to go where and how we were going to do it.

Katy: 07:00 Yeah, I think it’s really important to tap into everyone’s interest because, you know, just because your next door neighbor or the guy in the coffee shop that you mentioned has been to wanting to go and spend 10 days in Rome that might not really appeal to it, to everyone. And so I think that you’ve really got to make, just really understand what your interests are and then you can find a place in Italy that’s really gonna appeal to that. So an example would be if you’re really into adventure and adventure experiences, then you might want to head up North to the Dolomites where you can do hiking and you know, more of those adventure sports. But and as you mentioned, you know, Florence is obviously an art hub and you can, you can, you could probably just spend ages just doing different wine regions really, which sounds like, sounds awesome to me. But another thing that came up in the group this week, which I thought was really interesting was someone wanted to know, should they choose Lake Como or the Cinque Terre and, wow, that’s a really hard decision, right?

Josie: 08:04 Yeah. I mean, I like both,

Katy: 08:07 So do I! But I guess what I ended up saying was, this person, this lady was from Australia and I said to her, well I think there’s, you know, we have a lot of coastal areas here in Australia, so maybe have a look at the lakes. Because to me, it blows my mind every time I see those lakes because we just don’t have anything like that here in Australia. With the big mountains in the background snow-capped

Josie: 08:31 Oh, it’s amazing. And I agree. I think I’m going to like Como or Lake Garda and, and experiencing that. There’s not one or the other. ,One isn’t bad and one is in good. They’re both amazing. So choose like we, cause we, I suppose you and I go so often, I’m getting to a point now is where do I really want to go or what have I seen and what I can’t miss. And I can tell you now, Rome is always every time on my agenda. And I changed that this year and I went to Milan and again, another amazing city. So it’s, it’s about working out what suits you and what differences and what is of interest to you. But one isn’t better and one is worse than the other. They’re all amazing.

Katy: 09:13 But I think at some stage you’re going to have to choose.

Josie: 09:16 That’s a hard decision.

Katy: 09:17 That’s the hard one and you can’t really pack everything into the trip. I mean it’s just impossible. Italy is a country of 25 regions and was it 25 or 20 I can’t remember. Anyway, there’s a lot of regions, so, and I haven’t been to all of them and I think, you know, it’s, you can’t, you, you can’t see all of it in probably in a lifetime. So unfortunately choices have got to be made, but there are really no bad choices are there.

Josie: 09:46 No, no. And I think something that is really key as well is how long do you stay? Right. I always say that you, the day that you arrive, you know, count that because you’re not gonna really do much depending on when you’re flying in. Right? So you might get an afternoon tour depending on when, but you want good three days in that city.

Katy: 10:06 I think so too. I think it’s a really, really key point. Even if you’ve got if you’ve got one week or two weeks or 10 days or I think most people sort of try for 10 days at least. But if you’ve only got a small, no matter how much time you’ve got, I think you really need to stay three days in each place to really get a feel for it and make it worth your while. I see in our group, I see a lot of people trying to do one or two days here or there. And I think, you know like, I totally appreciate the people don’t have as much time and they want to squeeze as much in, but the one thing you really need to understand is even though there’s super fast trains that go between the cities, you can have, you absolutely must factor in the time it’s gonna take for you to get to your accommodation. And it might actually take half that amount of time to sort all that out. You know, like we were waiting in a taxi line at Termini station in Rome for like half an hour, you know, so you can’t sort of just assume that you’re going to jump straight from the train and zip off to your hotel and then be able to check to be checked in straight away. You know, like things take time and you need to build that into, into your planning, I think.

Josie: 11:17 And even from Milan to like Como, it’s, it’s really quick. It’s a quick trip, right. And you get to the, to the Lake Como station and we had a hotel book and you booked and you had these stairs. And my husband looked at me and we’ll talk about what to pack next time and the suitcases. And we had to, we had our Google maps, we had to find the hotel, we had to go up the stairs and we had to pull these suitcases up, these big stairs up to Lake Como to, towards the city. We weren’t sure. That took us a good hour. Yup. Right. and then, but we left early so we thought, Oh, it’s okay, we’ll get there really quickly. But, but we got there by lunchtime. So you do have to factor in because there’s, there’s variables that we don’t know. We don’t know where the stairs are. We don’t know how the trains are going. We don’t know what’s happening. So yeah,

Katy: 12:03 I think that’s the, that’s absolutely true. Anywhere, any time you go anywhere new or even if it’s a new suburb in our city, you know, like it still takes a little bit of time. You’ve got to figure out where to park. You don’t have your back streets, you know, strategy worked out. So I think it’s, and it’s even more true in a different country. So, yes. I think the main point there is, you know, try to factor in at least three days in each place and you’ll be able to relax and enjoy and find out where the best gelato is and where the best bars are and really sit back and enjoy that time in those cities and get to know them a bit better. You know? So it’s the, it’s the joy of Italy really.

Josie: 12:42 But even if you stay, let’s say Rome for three days or four days you can do day tours out. So it’s not necessarily if you, if you are concerned about moving by train or driving, you don’t necessarily have to stay. So work out what you want in your itinerary because you can do Pompeii in a day. You can, you can go to different places from Rome. So it’s not necessarily that you have to move from Rome to do, you could do day tours, but if you want to, there is options.

Katy: 13:10 Absolutely. And you know, I think that’s, that’s a really great point. My last trip that I just came back from, I did a couple of quite a few day trips, actually two from Florence and one from Rome. And it was really great just to have a base to come back to at nighttime and just recharge. So, and what we did was we had a day trip and then we had another day in the city and a day trip and another day in the city, which really broke up the the trip and made it really just really fascinating. So one of the day trips we did from Florence was to Bologna.

Josie: 13:45 I’m dying to go there.

Katy: 13:46 So we did a food tour and you know, if you’re going to be listening to this podcast, you’re going to hear a lot about food tours cause it’s my favorite thing to talk about. And we also do a day trip to Siena and San Gimignano in Tuscany. So that was wonderful. And then I did from Rome did a trip a day trip to Naples, which wasn’t enough by the way. And it was, you know, but it was great to get a taste and I will definitely be back. So yeah, definitely build day trips into your itinerary because they can be a really good way to just break it up and you’ve still got that base of where to stay.

Josie: 14:20 So, Katy, when we talk about classical itineraries for first time visitors, what does that look like for you?

Katy: 14:26 So I guess most people, and this has been going on for centuries, right? That from, you know, the Victorians in the, in, in England, they would go on their grand tour, which would include Rome, Italy, Rome, Florence, and Venice. And you know, people have been doing that for years. And I don’t think people will ever want to stop because those two, three cities are just, you know, they’re so unique and so beautiful and so special that it’s just the classic itinerary and everyone really just wants to do that now. And I guess the challenge with that though now is that they’re becoming very busy and everybody wants to do that. So I see, you know, group, I see people trying to squish that into a week. And I think that’s, that’s almost impossible to do on your own unless you perhaps get a tour. Like one of the bigger companies. So like Trafalgar or Intrepid, they do some great tours. And you know, it’s really surprising cause I’ve had a good look at the tours that are on offer these days. And it’s not really my preferred travel style at the moment. I’m more of an independent traveler. But if you’re visiting for the first time, I think they offer amazing value and really great options that you wouldn’t be able to do on your own on your first visit. They, they do like stays in castles farm dinners, all sorts of unique and interesting things these days. So.

Josie: 15:54 well it takes away the stress of you having to worry absolutely certain in certain instances, like if you’re not that pedantic, they still offer a really great option. But if you want to be in control of every single hotel restaurant, how you get there when you get there, then that’s the other option being an independent traveler.

Katy: 16:13 Yeah, that’s true. But even in, in the middle there, like I, you know, I think that they, their tour companies now realize they’ve got to offer that downtime, a lot of. Oh, like spare time to go and explore on your own. And if you’re, if you’re nervous about traveling to Italy for the first time, I would definitely recommend having a look at some tours because I really think they, they offer some great options. I’ve actually got an article on that that I’ll put in the links in the show notes so you can have a look at what the latest tour offerings are coming up. And honestly, I think they, they’re great

Josie: 16:48 I think the tours are really great. I think you can get so much done in such a short time because they’re so great at what they do. We’ve gotten stuck before where we’ve gone places and we’ve only allowed one or two nights and we just haven’t had the quality time to see everything we wanted to see. So I think it’s a balance between, what do we want to say and be understanding that if we want to do five or six places that we’re not going to get to see everything.

Katy: 17:14 Yeah, that’s right. I think that’s, that’s the compromise isn’t it? And unfortunately there’s, there are compromises that have to be made. And I think, you know, sometimes I see people wanting to really try and see Rome, Florence, Venice, Cinque Terre and the Amalfi Coast in 10 to 14 days. And that’s really going to be a struggle without a tour. I think what I would recommend in that case is to have a look at the map, a video of you and where we haven’t even mentioned that I didn’t get the map out or even, or get out Google maps and just see the, the size of the country and see how you can, you know, where everything is. So if you did want to do like that really fast paced itinerary, which you can do, make sure you have a look at the map. And one of the other tips I would have for that is if you want to do the Rome to Venice route, then I would recommend flying into Rome and out of Venice. So an open jaw that takes you either into one city or out of another or back the other way. So flying into Venice and then out of Rome,

Josie: 18:16 But even when you think about it, right, right. All the places, let me just go to the Amalfi coast. If we look at that just as an example, right? You have to get from Naples or from Rome to get to, let’s say Sorento, we’ll just park ourselves there. You want to do, you want to go to Capri? That’s a whole day. You want to, you want to walk around Sorento. It’s amazing. Right? Then you want to go to Ravello. You might want to do Amalfi. So there’s another two days or you do Positano. So, but again, you would do them, you could do them in a day, but you want to experience if you’re staying in, in Sorrento. So by the time you get there, by the time you do Capri, Positano Amalfi, Ravello, you know, so you’ve got to work out. So when you are planning, those are the things you do need to actually write down. What are we going to actually want to see and what are we prepared not to see?

Katy: 19:12 Yup. I think that’s right. You know, because again, from there there’s so much, you know, you’ve got Pompei and Naples.

Josie: 19:17 I mean I know I’m going to make you upset. I know I’ve not been to Pompeii since I was 13 . Because I, you know what it is. It’s that, it’s that actual, what do I really, really want to say. And I do want to see them and the catacombs in Rome, which I haven’t seen, but I’ve been to Rome seven times, eight times. And every time it’s something different because I’ve prioritized. But I think if it’s your first time and you may think you’re not going back, get your priority list out. And really, as you said, get the map out and see what else you want to do.

Katy: 19:48 Yeah. And I think, you know, if you do that planning upfront and you have, you know, that list of things that you really want to see and we’re going to cover the main, I guess, sites in upcoming episodes so you can really, you know, have an idea of what you might like to see. But you know, if ancient history isn’t your jam, then maybe don’t spend hours at the Coliseum, which, you know, which you know is fine, you can do that. If you don’t want to go, don’t go. The other one is the Vatican. If your idea isn’t of of a fun time, isn’t looking at art, then maybe you skip the Vatican museums, you know? And that’s fine. The other thing is if you’re traveling with kids, that puts a whole nother layer on top of the things that I can talk to people about the hours, you know, so there’s, you know, we haven’t taken our kids to Florence for example, because, well they’re only six. But Florence is very museums and art shopping and sitting down at restaurants orientated. And you know what, I, you know, the, I don’t think my kids are ready for sitting down and admiring art for four days on end. I just don’t think they’re ready for that.

Josie: 21:01 And I’ve got, I’ve got older children and we ended up in Florence and they wanted to do a wine tour with us. So, which was great. Right? But there’s going to be places they want to go on this places they don’t want to go. So I agree. I think you know for for little ones, what, what are you going to do in Florence if you can’t go to see all of the museums for them, you know,

Katy: 21:21 Because there are not many parks and gardens there. Although like I snaffled out a few in the last visit I was there cause I was actively looking for parks and you know what, there’s not that many outdoor spaces to go running around in or pedestrian zones for that matter. So you want to keep the kids safe and it’s and you know really make sure that they are enjoying themselves because otherwise you’re not going to have a great time either. So there’s all these little layers of interest and situation and who’s doing what and who wants to see, see what. I had another example in the group the other day of a lady, she wanted to know whether Verona was worth visiting, which it is obviously one of my favorite cities, but her husband wanted to go to, I think it was either the Ferrari or the Lamborghini factory. And like they had a, they had a fairly full itinerary and I think everyone ended up saying, well, you know, you’ve been to, you’re going to Ravenna. You’re going to Modena and all these places. You know, maybe maybe give him this one, maybe give him the Lamborghini factory because you know, you’ve seen a lot of other similar things. So again, it just comes down to compromise interests. And you know what, you really want to do.

Josie: 22:33 something that my family, like, we love going to beach clubs. So whether it’s in Puglia or in Sicily or in Sorrento it’s, it’s finding a beach club that would suit us in Sorrento. We spent a lot of money because they don’t have sand. And we had to go and it was really, really expensive, but it was really great. So even in Puglia, we found the beach clubs that would suit us. So there’s different things for different people. So I think just, you know, have the map out, start writing your wishlist and then work out the best way or that we can have to do an an episode on beach clubs. I think.

Katy: 23:12 So that’s really what you should do for the first time itinerary. But then I think, you know, many, many people go to Italy for the first time and do that classic tour and think, Oh, I just, I’ve got to go back. So then, you know, if you’re visiting for subsequent trips, like, we have. Well, what’s the process then? And you know, I definitely have a, a way of going about mine our itineraries and I really like to choose a region that I haven’t been to yet and then revisit some places that I absolutely love. So I guess I haven’t been to Puglia like you have. And I haven’t been to Sardinia and I haven’t been to Le Marche, which is really, really intriguing to me. It’s now, it’s on the Lonely Planet, list of places to go for 2020, and it’s one of those unsung regions that they sort of find and expose and let everyone know about. So I’d heard about it from some people that I’ve been working with on the Facebook group and they run tours in Le Marche and it just sounds like a wonderful area and I can’t wait to go there. So what we would do is, you know, choose some regions that we hadn’t been to before and mix that up with either and maybe another trip back to Rome or spend some time in Rome or Venice because it’s hard to keep me away from Venice.

Josie: 24:29 Isn’t it funny? I’m a bit of a, I’ve got a girlfriend in Milan, so I liked Milan and Rome. So for me, I like to go in and out of that. And it also depends on where you’re starting from and how the flights come in and out and the prices and all of that. But another, I think another region at the moment, which is really going off from a, from an Australian point of view is Sicily. I think it’s always been there and I think it’s always been front of mind, but it is definitely now becoming more the, the, the region to go as well.

Katy: 25:02 Yeah, well I absolutely love it. And we spent a week there a few years ago and I just, we didn’t have enough time and I think you really need two weeks in Sicily on its own. And we didn’t even get to Palermo or Cefalu and I’m like, Oh, no I need to go back.

Josie: 25:18 And I agree. I think if we talk about mistakes we’ve made, we, I didn’t really research Sicily that well because my husband’s is from a Sicilian family and I’m like, Oh, we’ll be right. We went to Taormina for one night. What was I thinking? So Taormina really for those listeners, it should be really a three, four. Honestly, I could stay 10 nights there. So Sicily is one place again that you would do two weeks if you wanted to do the whole of it. Otherwise you just do either Catania or Taormina, which is where we made a mistake. We stayed one night. So there is mistakes we make along the way even though we’re experienced travelers.

Katy: 25:56 Yep. You sure do. And that’s, that’s the all part of the learning and that’s why we want to share with everyone is you know, what, what we’ve learned along the way. And hopefully we can help other people, you know, plan their trips so that they may maximize the time spent wandering and just admiring and just soaking everything up. So Josie, maybe we should just summarize what we’ve talked about. So in this episode, in terms of itinerary planning and just making the most of the time that you have in Italy,

Josie: 26:24 So start with inspiration and then work through the logistics. You need to have, make some tough choices, which we decided that, you know, which one, which choice are you going to make over another? Know, what interests you really like. So if you like art galleries, pick somewhere that’s going to give you that love of what you love.

Katy: 26:43 And I think then the, you know, also plan by region and I think it’s probably good again to get out the map and say okay right I want to, if you, if you want to do say Sicily then it probably makes sense to go across. You can drive across from Sicily to Calabria or you can get the ferry, sorry very easily. So it might make sense to combine the South – Calabria and Puglia with Sicily. It doesn’t necessarily make much sense to do Sicily with the Veneto up in Venice, cause they’re just on the opposite sides of the country. The other one is stay at least three days in each place. That way you get all the unpacking and repacking sorted out and it’s not too much of a stress. And the last one is to understand the travel times between each place. Most of the time in Italy, many people are traveling by train in between cities. But also if you’re traveling by car, things can take a bit longer than what you think if you’re not going on the highways. So just make sure you spend a bit of time planning and to make the most of your trip, understand what your interests are and just you’ll have a wonderful time.

Josie: 27:52 I agree. I think that’s a great couple of great tips there, Katy. So everyone, thanks for listening. We hope you found the discussion about itinerary planning helpful.

Katy: 28:01 If you have any questions about your Italy itinerary, feel free to ask them. In our free Italy travel planning Facebook group, I put a link to the group in the show notes as well as other resources, including a sample 10 day itinerary you can use as a baseline to help you plan your own travels. Coming up in our next episode, we’ll be talking about the must-see highlights in Rome.

Josie: 28:20 I can’t wait. Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast for all the latest episodes. Grazie. Thanks for listening, ciao, for now.

Katy: 28:27 Ciao for now.

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